TUESCHEN.MEDIZIN_KUNSTFEHLER@t-online.de (Rolf Tueschen) wrote:



>Ok, I can post you your own article and my questions again. But you must
>remember your own posts, no?

My brain is still in good condition. I remember much...

>You wrote somewhere in March about some prgs. And you let drop some
>qualifications of the prgs that I couldn't understand. At the moment I recall
>the word about Fritz, that he doesn't search in the tree ... And you spoke of
>some other prgs.

>Now one of the last times:

>I beg you to repeat your verdicts over todays most known prgs and try to
>qualify them in some categories -- understandable for a pupil. because your
>short versions couldn't be understood. :((

I don't want to comment to explain my ideas to other people.
I don't want this.
As somebody who has tried to do this years ago, my publisher has told me, that the people are not interested in detailed experience. And that the level of the readers reading magazines is not that high.
Therefore I don't explain in public. Maybe you should read Europa Rochade. Their some people have not given up edudication of readers.

>Ok, mclane? And thanks again for at least some of interesting stuff about
>events in Haag. I had wished for more ...

I don't know why all the others don't tell us about their experiences in Den Hague. I guess they don't want. And while we are talking here, many of them program much they have learned into their programs.

I have not seen any stuff from Stefan, although Shredder must have made many experiences in Den Haag. Also I have not seen anything from Ferret. Although ....

Also I would have liked to hear from Kallisto guys, from Dragon guys and from other guys.

I guess many do not talk here because they think they cannot profit anything.

I think this is not true. Showing the others the games and the problems could lead to some programming advances and new ideas. But maybe others don't want to share IDEAS ??

>And skittles?? You invited bruce to play some games in the big hall before
>tournament. now I asked for some notations. Skittles are casual /occasional
>games not taken too serious -- if I remember well.

Bruce was not able to play one single game against me - oops, sorry , Chess System Tal.

I asked him often and often, but he don't wanted. I don't want to comment on this, because I was disapointed about the fact.

Meanwhile I let chess system tal play against many WEAKER programs then ferret, e.g. Mchess-Aegon97, cilk-chess (one CPU) and others.
Also against Patzer (this program gave CSTal a tough fight... I was totally disapointed watching the mess.) and others.

I have not find the time to make a report about this. And Chris last reactions on my posting do not let me want to work on this.

>I mean we're not talking eskimo, no? :)

Thats my problem with you: I don't understand this comment about eskimo's. It is a sentence that fills a gap, but which gap?
It is a joke ?! Aha.

>And your commentary on bruce. Good one. That was always my point. He's thinking
>the world was invented by him in some ways.

Bruce is -as I registered in Paderborn  (my prejudice was therefore right) a nice guy. He has a nice wife and an unbelievable funny son. He can be proud not only on ferret, he can be proud of whole of his family.
I liked the time and tried to explain his son the difference between Star Trek and Star Wars. But I was not very succesful. I guess Vulcans are not that interesting like Darth Vader or other horro-stories. I have come to the conclusion that Star Wars is more for kids, and Star Trek is more for adults.

From my point of view, I joint the time with bruce and co. and my only problem was, that I sometimes thought that my good feelings were not echoed, what has made me a little disapointed, but it is not the place to discuss emotinal things like this here....

>And he did agitate me a lot with
>his superficial remarks about concentration camps.

I don't know what you wanted to hint on with this statement.
I hope it is not meant against Bruce in any bad connotation.
This is the problem I have with you. Sometimes I cannot see if you want to attack somebody or not.

I try more to make it obvious what I think about a topic.

>But we'll see if he could
>get mature by some negative experiences. Then it was for the best of him. Let's
>give him some time. :)

Maybe Ferret/Bruce has learned, that all the many games played on the server are also very often GAMES FOR FUN. And suddenly he saw games played by people, also in a relaxed atmosphere, but played not to waste some time playing chess, but played with the target really to win.

This is IMO a big difference. I don't want to know how many games on these servers were played for fun, but were count in a statistic with all the other serious games played there.

>If you think the writing about computer chess prgs coud be boring out of
>topic, please send me some material via email. Thanks.

Ok, this might be better possible, not for the public. I get nothing back when I am talking or reporting. When I discuss here, I get something back. Therefore I prefer not to speak in monologues, but in dialogues.

>Did you oversee that I was with Bob the only one to analyse and comment on this
>famous CSTal sac on f2? Ah, I forgot bruce again!

They have tried the move on their programs. Their programs did not play Nxf2. Therefore in their universe they say:
The move must be incorrect. If MY program is not finding it, it must be incorrect.

I think this is a little shallow. also I don't think that it is easy to analyse about this move.
Whatever it was, CSTAL has not played the move because it has seen anything. It is designed to play these moves without seeing if it works.

BTW: My friend Peter Schreiner has written an excellent summary about Chess System Tal in Europa-Rochade, and he has used the Nxf2 game as an example together with another game.

But - I guess - less people will recognize the move.... or ?

>So please try to understand myx german lines in this way. I hate these brakes
>in an interesting thread. Sometimes it stops at the most interesting point....

This was the 15' blitz game we played against Mchess-Aegon97 , both programs having the fast Hewlett Packard P6/200 Mhz tournament machines.

[Event "?"]
[Site "15' game"]
[Date "????.??.??"]
[Round "1"]
[White "CSTal"]
[Black "Mchess"]
[Result "1-0"]

1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 Bb4 4. e5 c5 5. a3 Bxc3+ 6. bxc3 Ne7 7. Qg4 Qc7 8.
Qxg7 Rg8 9. Qxh7 cxd4 10. Ne2 Nbc6 11. f4 Bd7 12. Qd3 dxc3 13. Nxc3 a6 14. Rb1
Na5 15. h4 Nf5 16. Rh3 {+0,85} O-O-O 17. h5 {+2,17 says CSTal. I told Peter about the evaluation, but he was not believing that this evaluation meant anything....} Nc4 18. Rb4 Kb8 19. Qe2 Rg3 20. Rxg3 {still +1,86 pawns up...} Nxg3
21. Qf3 {+1,60} Nxf1 22. Kxf1 Rg8 23. g4 {+2,09} Qc5 24. g5 {+1,81} Rh8 25. h6 Rc8 26. Ne2 a5 27. Rb3
Ba4 28. Rc3 Ka8 29. Qd3 {+2,05} Qb6 30. Kg2 Qb1 31. f5 {+2,96} exf5 32. Qxf5 {+4,26 } Rb8 33. h7 {+4,29} 1-0

We stopped the game here, because peter was so much involved in talking with a lady from Focus or Spiegel about Mchess, that he was unable to concentrate anymore on real computerchess.
The lady searched for Frederic Friedel. She said, can you tell us where I can find Mr. Friedel. Ha - we both laughed , than she is right here, we said (and grinned in mind!). Why do you looking for him ? Ah - she said: I had to write about an intelligent chess program, Fritz or something like that.

Fritz ?! We or he (I don't have it in mind accurate Peter... ) said: but if you want to write about an intelligent program, you have to write about Mchess, of course....

Fritz ?! We involved the lady in some minor discussions about Friedel and his clan and we were all very amused, the mood was good and much insider jokes flew though the air....

Also one day we played on the hotel room, and a very very nice game happened that made me sweat very much. It was against XXXX2 , Martin Zentners program.
I thought it could be a good idea to get a revange for Paderborn 1995, where chris' program played c7-c8N and lost the game although the position was a mate against XXXX if CSTal would have played the promotion into a queen. It didn't .
In the revange game, CSTAl sacced something and XXXX2 defended like a tiger. But moves later it overstressed the position and lost the game.
What a pity that I have not saved this game. Maybe somebody has deleted it from my harddisc in a moment I was not there... maybe martin has saved the game, whatever- it was a pretty cool game and the revange for paderborn 1995 was a win for cstal.

Oh - no - here it is, I found the game....

Look yourself the unbelievable game:
I don't know the time control, but XXXX2 got Peters P5/200 and I used my P5/120 for Chess System Tal ...

[Event "Revange for Paderborn 95"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "????.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "XXXX2"]
[Black "CSystem Tal"]
[Result "0-1"]

1. e4 b6 2. d4 Bb7 3. Bd3 e6 4. Ne2 c5 5. c3 d5 6. exd5 Qxd5 7. Nf4 Qd7 8. dxc5
Bxc5 { oh - this is of course a position CSTal likes very much!} 9. O-O Nf6 10. Re1 O-O 11. c4 e5 12. Nh3 Rd8 13. Be2 Qc8 {oops - white gets into trouble....} 14. Nd2 Bxg2 { ! Ha ! played with a score of 3.63 !! and from the first second of the search-process !! Standard Tal-move ....you could see the flickering in Martins' eyes when I told him Tals evaluation-....} 15.
Kxg2 e4 16. Qc2 Qf5 {as discussion started if this sac was accurate. Evaluation of XXXX2 said: no this sac was stupid....} 17. Nf1 Nc6 18. Ng3 Qc8 19. Nxe4 { chess system tal says: this move was bad, no we can hit back... } Nxe4 {cstal evaluation is +1.63}  20. Qxe4 Re8  21. Qd3
Nb4 { many moves have gone since the first sac. Nothing is forced. But this is the problem: a search based program can only defend against something, that can be SEEN in the tree. Here nothing can be seen, therefore XXXX2 is not overprotecting much. + 0,76 evaluation} 22. Qd1 {evaluation +0,79 after this move. Chess System Tal feels well in this position because it knows about the fact that the king is exposed heavily and it is just a few steps to die here, other programs counting material would see it different} Qf5 23. Bf3 Nc2 {+1,12} 24. Rxe8+ Rxe8 25. Bd2 Nxa1 {CSTals eval says +1,73 } 26. Qxa1 Qg6+ {and still the problem is : the king is exposed. Moves and moves have gone, but the main problem that was build with Bxg2 is on the board. CSTal increases evaluation to +2.68 and higher because another defending piece - the queen on a1 - is far away from the main-point of the game} 27. Ng5 {horizont}
h6 {CSTal says +3,09} 28. h4 Qd3 {+4,47 !!}  29. Qc1 hxg5 {+4,42}  30. hxg5 Re5 {found late, before Rd8 was considered with 5.03, now Re5 was played with +5,80} 31. Bh5 {Martin still cannot believe, I guess.} Qe4+ {+8,51 says CSTal.}32. f3 Qh4 {+7,93} 33. f4 Re4 34.
Qh1 Qf2+ {Martin must have nerves like iron CSTal says +10,48 pawns} 35. Kh3 Rd4 36. Qa8+ {no lost game without revange-check!  CSTal says +12,62 and plays...} Bf8 37. Bxf7+ Kxf7 38. Qb7+ Be7 {+13,77 pawns up and here Martin has enough... } 0-1

Wasn't this an unbelievable game ???


We discussed much in Den Haag.  I met Don Daily, who is a nice guy working on the CILK-CHESS project. I guess this program has more chances ever to win against Kasparov than any other program.

Don Daily likes to implement chess-knowledge into his parallel-program. Although he had only a small notebook with him, we played some games, I wanted to know about cilk-chess - of course - and the best way to find out about a program is to watch the games, and watch the evaluations and main-lines.

[Event "?"]
[Site "15'game"]
[Date "????.??.??"]
[Round "1"]
[White "CSTal v231"]
[Black "Cilkchess 1CPU"]
[Result "1-0"]

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 e5 6. Ndb5 {+0,50} d6 7. Bg5 {+0,39} a6 8.
Na3 b5 9. Bxf6 {+0,25} gxf6 10. Nd5 {+0,20} f5 11. Bd3 {first seconds CSTal considered about Bxb5, I was very nervous. NONONO I tried to hypnotize it} Be6 12. Qh5 {of course here we come again in a kind of position Tal likes more... +0,95} Bg7 13. O-O f4 14. c4 {+1,02} bxc4
15. Bxc4 {+1,39} O-O 16. Rac1 Rb8 17. b3 {cstal did not decided to eat with Bxa6} Qa5 18. Nb1 Kh8 19. Nbc3 f5 20. Rfd1 {temptation here was Ne7 Bxc4 and difficult stuff. I don't know why Rook-move came in the end...} Bd7 21.
Rd2 fxe4 22. Nxe4 {+2,40} Bf5 23. Ndc3 Nd4 24. Ng5 {+2,05} Bg6 25. Qh3 Bf6 26. Nge4 Bxe4 27.
Nxe4 d5 28. Nxf6 {+2,61} Rxf6 29. Bd3 Rf7 30. Rcd1 {+1,62}  Rg8 31. Qh5 Rfg7 32. Bxh7 {+4,41 !! It looks that cilk has overseen some tactical stuff that is TAL's favourite job: fishing threads arround the king....never try to do king-attack stuff with cstal as opponent.} Rxg2+ 33.
Kh1 {+6,81} Rg1+ 34. Rxg1 Rxg1+ 35. Kxg1 Qxd2 {cstal evaluated finally +7,42  main-line says:Bd3+ Kg7 Qxe5+ Kf7 Qxd5+ Ke7 Qc5+ Ke6 Qb6+ Kd5 Bc4+ Ke5 Qc7+ Kf6 Qf7+ Ke5 Qe7+ Kf5 ...and strange stuff} 1-0

What a funny position on board!

As you now see Rolf, CSTal is almost always good for a spectacular sac or a promising undercover-job.
Here comes another sacrificial game....

[Event "?"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "????.??.??"]
[Round "2"]
[White "CSystem Tal"]
[Black "Cilk-chess 1CPU"]
[Result "1-0"]

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 e5 6. Ndb5 d6 7. Bg5 a6 8.
Na3 b5 9. Nd5 {+0,49} Qa5+ 10. Bd2 {+0,62} Qd8 11. Nxf6+ Qxf6 12. Be3 Be6 13. Nxb5 {oh no - here it comes, +0,17 for this tiny little sac} axb5 14.
Bxb5 Kd7 {here the king is there where we wanted him to be...} 15. Qd2 {+2,51}  Qg6 16. f3 {+2,46} Be7 17. a3 {+1,24} f5 18. Bxc6+ {+3,06} Kxc6 19. exf5 Bxf5 20. g4 {+0,88 ugh - its not easy to fight against cilk-chess. Score goes up and down...}
Be6 21. O-O-O {but Tal is watching us in heaven and sometimes sending HELPING hands...} Ra4 22. f4 {sometimes you must give a pawn to bluff, and sometimes to fool the opponent} Bxg4 {Ha ! Bluff worked!!} 23. Qd5+ {+2,39 the bishop e6 made anything so safe in blacks area, now, having taken the poisened pawn, the game turns into the right direction, so that IN THE END the sac on b5 was alright - he - only joking here...} Kc7 24. Bb6+ {another piece is thrown in his mouth. Will he eat it too ?? +0,60 fail-high. Thats indeed the game of the feeding Tal.}  Kxb6 25. Qb3+ Kc7 26. Qxa4
Qh6 27. Qa7+ { +2,20 and Tal feeling in his element....} Kd8 28. Qb8+ {+2,22} Bc8 29. Kb1 {not to forget the king-safety. +3,02 for this little move...} exf4 30. Rhe1 {+4,16} Re8 31. Qb6+ {+10,02 Just a few little moves and the game is over...} Kd7 32. Qa7+ {+9,10}
Kd8 33. Qa5+ {+9,75} Kd7 34. Qb5+ {don't worry, we will not give check-check-check and draw like in Paderborn against the spanish program, we fixed this bug !! } Kd8 35. Rd3 Bg4 36. Qb8+ {cannot tell you evaluation, must be mate announced or something....} Kd7 37. Qb7+ Kd8 38. Rc3 1-0


You see, with chess system tal the boring days of computerchess are over.

We will never see games where no side of the players have an idea, this is the step into funny games....

Of course it is much more complicated to win with black....

[Event "?"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "????.??.??"]
[Round "3"]
[White "Cilk-chess 1CPU"]
[Black "CSystem Tal"]
[Result "0-1"]

1. d4 Nf6 2. Nf3 d5 3. c4 c6 4. e3 e6 5. Bd3 Nbd7 6. O-O dxc4 7. Bxc4 Bd6 {-0,41} 8.
Nc3 Nb6 9. Bd3 O-O 10. e4 Be7 11. Bg5 Ng4 {-0,80} 12. Bxe7 Qxe7 13. h3 Nh6 14. Rc1 Rd8
15. Re1 e5 {-0,47} 16. dxe5 Kh8 {+0,03} 17. Re3 Be6 18. Re2 Qb4 {-0,02} 19. Rd2 Qa5 20. b3 Nd7 21. Be2
Nxe5 {-0,16 } 22. Nxe5 Rxd2 23. Nxf7+ {he cilk - we are Tal, not you !!} Nxf7 24. Qxd2 Rd8 {-0,26} 25. Qe3 a6 26. f4 Qb4 27. Kh2
Qe7 {the programs are fishing arround, nothing special...CSTal tries to activate it's queen. A queen needs a king to mate...} 28. g3 Qf6 29. e5 Qh6 30. h4 Qg6  {-0,90, CSTal is not satisfied with the position. Will Cilkchess win this game?} 31. b4 Nh6 {0,00 ! Tal feels something coming} 32. Qb6 {Ha - I told Don that this is brilliant! Now CSTal feeds Cilk with UNIMPORTANT pawns. The Bronstein-method of handling with computerchess. Don laughed, but maybe he did not believed it right here ?} Rd2 {+0,53 CSTal on it's way making a win!} 33. Qxb7 {unimportant pawn number 1. +1,18 says CSTal. } Qd3 34.
Qa8+ Ng8 {+1,34} 35. Qxc6 {unimportant pawn number 2} Bg4 {+2,03 and Tal in good mood! 3 pawns less but having an attack...} 36. Qg2 Bxe2 {+2,80} 37. Nb1 Rb2 {+2,88} 38. a3 Qe3 39. Re1 Ra2 40. h5
Nh6 41. Qa8+ Ng8 42. Qg2 Qd3 {+2,91} 43. Nc3 Qxc3 {+2,16} 44. Rxe2 Rxa3 45. e6 {+2,38} Ne7 46. Rc2 Qf6 {+1,94}
47. Qa8+ Ng8 48. Qe4 Qd8 49. Qe2 Ra1 {+2,17} 50. h6 {Hu - the trouble comes nearer ! Good to know that Tal works also to defend own king-position, not only to attack with it....+2,13} Qd5 51. hxg7+ Kxg7 52. Qg4+ Kh8 53.
Kh3 h5 {+4,44} 54. Qg6 Rh1+ {+4,48} 55. Rh2 Qf3 {+2,97} 56. Qc2 Rg1 {+3,93}  57. Qg6 Qf1+ {+4,39} 58. Kh4 Qxf4+ {+4,09} 59. gxf4
Rxg6 60. f5 Rg4+ {+1,05} 61. Kxh5 Nf6+ {+1,19} 62. Kh6 Rg3 63. Rh1 Ng8+ 64. Kh5 Kg7 {+1,91} 65. Kh4 Rg2
66. Rf1 Kf6 {+4,14} 67. Kh3 Rb2 68. Rf3 Rxb4 69. Ra3 Rb6 70. Ra5 Ne7 71. Kg4 Nc6 {+4,75} 72.
Ra4 a5 {+5,15} 73. Re4 Rb4 {+6,69} 74. Kg3 Rxe4 {+19,79} 0-1

Is this enough , as the FIRST PART
OF THE AEGON TOURNAMENT ??